Hey, everybody. Welcome to My Guest Tonight. I'm your host, Jeff Revilla. I've got
a great guest joining me today, north of the border, a
Canadian horror author, podcaster, teacher.
We're going on. We're bridging the journey of education, psychology,
and the macabre. In the shadows of the
classroom light, she writes where fear and truth
unite. From Blackrock high to tales untold where
monsters teach just to be bold.
It's My Guest Tonight. Just.
Woodward here to set the pace. Dim those
lights and hold on tight. We're finding hope in the
dark tonight.
That is so good. Thank you.
Ashe Woodward, welcome to the show. I'm so glad you liked your theme song.
Thank you. That was awesome. So, so awesome. It's going to be
stuck in my head. Oh, my goodness. I'll send you a copy. A lot of
people want to reuse it later on or for their, like, entrance, like, if they're
speaking at a conference. Walking into the
wwe. Yeah, that's what I'm going to use. Every
speaker should have a walk on song. That's right. Yeah. That was excellent. Thank you.
Great job. Well, you're welcome. And I'm so glad to have you here tonight. And
as you know, this is kind of an origin stories podcast. We like to go
back to see who you were, to kind of figure out who you became, and
we like to connect the dots through that historical line. And I was
reading a little bit about you. You loved scary stories, horror
stories when you were a child. It was. Was it kind of a passion, something
you were drawn to very early on? It was something I was forced into,
I think. You know, my dad showed me scary movies when I was probably
much too young. But, you know, that was during a time when you just
went to the video store and you picked up something that was new and you
didn't really. No. Oh, it can't be that scary. I'm sure it's
fine. Let's just put her in front of the TV and see what happens. So
I think that was more what happened. And then just eventually
being a child in the 80s, it was like kind of
everywhere, like, spooky puppets and camp and,
you know, then cheesy horror movies were just kind of everywhere. Is kind of
how I remember it. Maybe that's wrong. But
then in, like, when Beetlejuice Juice came out, that was
like, 1988 and I fell in love then I was like, I love Beetlejuice.
I want to be Lydia when I grow up. That was. That was the one.
Yeah. That Beetlejuice was a game changer in the 80s. And I try to explain
to my daughters, like, yeah, you would go to the video store in the 80s
and you might get four movies, maybe five if you were lucky
if you're rich. Five? Five. With the Rockefellers. I
got like two. Okay, you make it. But that's all you had the whole
weekend. Yeah, there wasn't anything else to watch
until Monday when you returned them. And then May would get two more.
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I always tell the story, too.
I. When I was a teenager, I lived across the street from a video
store. So it'd be like, you know, you're with your friends. What have you got?
20 bucks. Okay. A rent. Rent. A movie is like maybe $5.
You can get two for five or you can
dive into the bargain bin where, like those B movies and
weird movies nobody's ever heard of are a dollar each, and then you can get
five movies. So we would do that and then we'd have money for snacks.
So that's how I kind of got into, you know, exposed to different
horror movies and weird movies that
nobody else had heard of. I should have clarified. We weren't allowed to shop
the perimeter. We had to go into the aisles and get. And get the two
first. Oh, yeah, you can't have the new ones. Those are like the
expensive. Then you don't get any. Yeah, then you're only going to get one for
sure. So Beetlejuice and other movies, was there
something about those that obviously Lydia is an iconic
character and a lot of people related to her and her emotions
in that movie. Were there other characters or other things that drew
you in to that genre?
I mean, I'm trying to think.
I guess with Beetlejuice, it was really visual.
Right. Like, Tim Burton had also done Pee Wee's Big Adventure,
and I was a huge Pee Wee Herman fan. And so, you know, from
Pee Wee's Playhouse, that, like puppetry, the colors and
then the stop motion, which was also part of Pee Wee's Playhouse. And then Tim
Burton does that later. And that's a big part of Beetlejuice. I think
that was always just an interesting to me, like, how is that happening?
How did they make things move in that kind of animation? That style was really
intriguing and that interest. Did you start
thinking of your own stories or developing your own worlds when you
were very young and. And start putting that to paper?
No, maybe not the paper. Yeah, definitely. I was living in my own
world, that's for sure. I always tell the story
like I remember writing stories on a Commodore
64, if people know what that is. But there was no word
processor. So I would sit and I used to pretend, like,
practicing typing. I loved practicing typing. I thought it was so sexy. Like,
my grandmother was like a secretary. She could type so fast. I was like, oh,
my gosh, I want to type so fast. So I'd practice typing and I'd make
up these stories. But like I said, there was no word processor, so I'd always
have to sit there and, like, delete my stories afterwards. So,
no, I don't think I got anything to paper unless it was for school,
unfortunately. And with school, you. You
graduate high school, you go on to college, and you start studying. Do you study
literature? Or at some point you decide that teaching
or maybe being an English teacher is in your future. What kind of led you
down that path?
Lack of options. I mean, I.
I don't think I ever really knew what I wanted to be, except,
like, yeah, I guess I could be a teacher. Like, that just felt so
easy. I didn't really. I went to school,
yes, for literature, but that still doesn't give you a good
idea of what you're going to be in the future. Like, there's professor. Sure.
You know, or like, poet. I don't think so. So
I was working at a car factory, and somebody happened
to mention that her sister was teaching English abroad.
I was like, I could do that. And I get a free trip to Mexico.
Okay, where do I sign up? So I did. And then I.
Well, it wasn't that quick. I studied for like a year. I had to get
a degree in teaching esl, English as a second language.
Lived in Mexico, taught English there. And then when I came back, I continued
just being an English teacher here in private schools. And
during that time, you get to develop your own curriculum. Do you get to
choose the reading materials? Is there anything that you lean more
towards while you're. You're instructing young minds? Oh,
gonna get me in trouble. But yeah, I mean, especially when I was teaching high
school, that was total different ball game, you
know, choosing short stories. There's something about, like,
teenagers love dystop. Like, they.
They're really intrigued by, like, you know, how. What's the
worst that. What's the worst we can get ourselves into as
humanity? And let's see, like, that hero character prevail. Right? Like,
teenagers really latch onto those things. So, I mean,
dystopia is horror adjacent. So I would really kind of. Yeah. Try
and push the envelope just a little bit. And get them
interested that way. Do you think like young minds are,
are so they, they believe that the world can change
and they're the agent of change and they, they see the world much different
than I do at 50 years old at, at 14 or 15.
Little punk rock Jeff was like, I'm going to change a lot of things. And
is that maybe what draws or you know, just in your opinion, what kind
of draws teenagers to that dystopian world is,
hey, that's a place of change. I'm thinking about, you know,
rebelling and, and creating something new. I wonder if, if there's
a connection between those two. Oh yeah, definitely. Especially
like you said, rebelling like that's our teenagers are. They're like, no,
we don't want any of this stuff that you've already creative. We want to, we
want to break it all down and smash the system and then see what
we can do. Because we're, you know, they still have that Superman
complex that they can do anything right? And, and that's great. That's what we need
them for. That's what they're supposed to be idealistic and want to
change the world and fix our problems and have ideas and be inn
because we need them to be because, you know, we didn't do such
a good job, especially this time. And
you know, as you're teaching these young minds, as you're seeing, you know, the way
they perceive the world as, as you're developing your own curriculum,
is this where you start thinking of building your own worlds and
writing your own stories and.
Sort of. I think it was more before because
I was, when I was still working in Toronto
and then I had a couple major people in my family
pass away. It was kind of one of those like, oh,
I've always told myself I'm a writer, but I've never written a book. And now
I've seen two people like pass away and I'm like
kind of affected by the passing of time. I think it's time to get
on it because I was, I was actually asking myself, I'm like, okay, you keep
thinking in your head you're a writer. But you know, I've written poetry and I've
written short stories but nothing published and I'd never written a full length book. I
was like, you better put your money where your mouth is. Let's see if you
can actually do this. Because if not, you gotta get this dream outta your
head. So I sat down for three
months every single morning and wrote Blackrock High and says
okay. Like, it wasn't. I didn't even plan on publishing it. I just wanted to
see if I could finish, like, 80,000 words, 90,000 words. Like, could I even
do that? And then I could. And then it was like, oh, this isn't. This
isn't so bad. Maybe I will publish this. Let's see what happens. So that's kind
of how it went. Is there any. Did you draw anything from your teaching
profession and put into Black Rock High? Are there any connections between,
you know, maybe some of the characters you might have met along the way?
I think it's more from when I was in high school, actually, rather than
my students. Yeah, it's more characters, actually.
I think it's more four different aspects of my own personality from
being in high school. Like, you know, each year I was kind of. Well, one
year I was a little more rebellious. One year it was a little bit more
sporty, and the next year I was a little more thoughtful and to myself, you
know, like. And that's kind of how it manifested. The reason I wrote
Black Archai. Like, that was because I wanted to make it easy. I was trying
to write something and see, can I write this? Okay, let's just make it easy
on myself. What would be something I know how to write, Characters I would know
is me, right? So I just tried to make it as simple as possible for
my first one. Did you have a process? Did
you have to figure out how to write, or did you just sit
down and it came out? Because some authors I've interviewed, this book
was in them, and it just came to page right away. And
other authors had to develop process or structure or, you know,
designate writing time. Was it a little easier to write the first
book? Was it already within you, or did you have to
kind of suss it out? Kind of all of that, really, because
I was kind of going from, like, the seat of my pants. I'm definitely like,
in the writing world, there are things we call planners and
pantsers. I'm a pantser, which means I go by the seat of my pants. Like,
I just. I think I've got the first line. I'm just going to write. I
will edit later. And what I kind of did in
that case was that I just wrote until I couldn't write anymore.
And then I went back and said, oh, I forgot, you know, what
this detail was. And now I need it again. I'm like, oh, now I need
to plan it all out and I need to write notes and I need to
go back. And that's fine. I kind of actually like that. That's fine. I get
to go back and edit. But I didn't really have a process. I didn't really
know what I was doing besides get up before work and write. That was one
thing. Because that was going to be the only time I had and
make myself do this because I wanted it. It was something that I had always
wanted to do, was see if I could write a book. And that was
the challenge to yourself, can I accomplish this? I say, I'm a
writer, but can I actually do it? Yeah.
And that was your first book. And then was the second book, the Cemetery
for Zoe. Cemetery for Zoe, Yeah. Yeah, that
one was more what you were saying. Like, it just came out of me. Zoe
was literally like a.
Like, the book starts with her digging graves. She
digs graves with her hands because she's a monster. So she was digging graves at
a cemetery. And I just, like, it was December of that year. I just
remember every night I went to sleep, all I could, like, see and hear was
just this, like, digging in the ground. I'm like, what is this story?
Like, okay, I get it. She's a monster. She's in a
cemetery. Where is this going? I'm like, okay, I finally have to answer this or
this is just going to keep me up all the time. So that one
came out a little bit more, like, almost
fully formed. It was like, I kind of saw how that was going
pretty easily. And the
podcast or not the podcast, yeah, we're going to. That's my follow up
question here. But the. These two books, right, they lead to
this surge of creativity, which these things are.
Your creativity creative, these are coming out of you. You're telling these stories. And
the podcast, that's so morbid, is that kind of a
continuation of. Of this genre of the
storytelling? This is gonna take us off
course. Okay, so while I was teaching,
I also had my own business and I was helping entrepreneurs get started.
So I was helping them, like, set up websites and
like, find their branding and that kind of stuff. And I, I held all these
events in Toronto and company was called YOLO
Palooza. And the whole kind of tagline was,
you know, yolo, do it before you die. Which is like,
obviously you can see there's a through line here, right? Like, time is
limited. If you want this business, if this is your dream, I will help you
do it. And with that business, I
started a podcast and it was called that's so yolo.
And I started doing that podcast, talking to entrepreneurs and people who
are starting businesses. And then I realized I want
to do also a, like, a shadow self of this podcast. I want
to do something that's also, like, the dark side of all of this.
And I was like, okay, I'm gonna do a sister podcast called that's
so Morbid. And I had a partner that
wanted to be part of it, and we started that. And
it was just exploring. It was exploring a lot of the things that,
yeah, it was connected to my. My novel writing because I was doing all
this research that I had nothing to do with. Like, I couldn't put
this nonfiction stuff into my fiction. It just came up in my. My research,
right? And I was like, I found out these wild things about Mary Shelley when
I was looking this up. I have to tell somebody. I'll start a podcast. And
that's. That's. That's kind of how that one worked. And then when I
lost my co host, he went back to video game graphics.
I was like, on my own. I didn't know if I would continue. And when
I decided to, it was like, well, I got to make this more me, which
was more the analytical, scholarly side
of horror. So then I developed the Spooky Scholars.
And with the Spooky Scholars, and
there's this, this theme and a very important part of some of your
messaging, some of the things that. That you tie together and
very big on inclusivity, on making sure
everybody is represented through. In storytelling, in the
creators of the people who. The authors, the storytelling. And tell
us a little bit more about your philosophy. I was kind of trying to tie
this in. I didn't mean to jump ahead so far into the podcast. But tying
all this in and really making sure that we touch on
inclusivity. Well, I think that just comes
along with horror. Horror is so
inclusive. So it just makes sense that, you know, it
is a genre that speaks to everyone. We all have fears.
And, you know, horror has a history of also
including, especially the outsiders. So when you're talking about
inclusivity, it's usually you're talking. Talking about the people who don't usually get noticed or
don't usually get included. And that's what horror does. It includes the
other. It includes, like, the underdog. It includes the, like the
strange and the unusual. So that's a big part of it. I
think my philosophy, you were saying, too, like, when you were a young punk
kid. I was a punk kid and into punk rock, and those philosophies
were instilled pretty early that, you know,
we we stick together and everyone's
invited as behind me. I have a theater and
it's funny, I still like the, the core concept of the theater is the
Gilman street rules. I don't know if you're familiar with Gilman street in San
Francisco. Yeah, yeah, so, so you have to like,
you have to cut. You better follow those rules. I don't have them posted, but
I do have like you. The Gilman street rules are our guidance. Yeah.
Oh, cool. That's a real meta. Not everybody listening to that is going to get
that. But look up the Gilman Street. I think it's 814 Gilman
Street. I might get the number wrong. Just look
up Gilman Street. Punk show rules. So.
And one of the things you believe is that, that you know, we
have these stories and the trauma can heal. It's, it's also a
healing property. You're able to put people in these
situations, but through that trauma, a part of the
storytelling is healing and coming out on the other end. Yeah,
it seems really counterintuitive. Right, like that. I
mean one of the studies that's, that's often done and a lot of
research has been gone into this is that horror movies
are cathartic for people. They speak to people that
tend to have more anxiety already, which again, that seems
bonkers. That seems like the opposite. Why would anxious people want to watch a
movie that makes you anxious? But, but
excuse me. You've got to think that watching a horror movie is like a safe
space. We know that this is fiction. We're gonna be scared
for the moment and then it's over. We also get to
see how the, the situation is managed.
So that might give you like thoughts on, oh, okay, I can do this. Especially
with Final Girls. It's very empowering for, for women to see
a woman come out at the end and be the survivor.
I think. I don't know if we connected before or
after this happened. And I'm sorry if I'm jumping ahead in your
notes, but my substack is
about that. Well,
how do I say this? My substack is
about political headlines that I match with horror movies. But I recently
had the opportunity to turn that into a radio show. So
my radio show, Horror Helpline is a call in show where people
call in, they tell me their problems and then I match their problems to horror
movies. So yeah, I guess
that's my thing. I can't explain, I guess more than that how it works,
but it does. And you also do public
classes and online classes as well, are you tying in these
themes with. With the horror genre and writing
and creating and. And bringing a community together, even. Even
helping people with their healing? I mean, I try to. I mean,
horror is bound to come up. So there's always gonna. I'm always gonna refer to
it, I'm always gonna recommend it, and really just saying
that, you know, have you ever watched a horror movie and just to
see, oh, no, I could never do that. I'm like, well, here's some recommendations. Why
don't you try this? Some people find it cathartic. Some people find
it actually, like, it's a. A release. Once
you've, like, held yourself so tight and, like, watched in fear and made it through,
a lot of people are like, oh, okay. Like, they kind of feel
stronger. They almost feel like a confidence boost because of it. So, yeah, it's.
It's just always bound to come up. So you got the podcast, the
radio show, some books. You're doing, classes. You
have all these things in place. Now. Where do you see this going in
in two years or five years? Are there more books on the way or
still within you? Or do you see yourself maybe going on
the conferences and speaking and getting on the speaking circuits?
Yeah, I mean, there's always books on the way. Don't worry.
The next book that I have coming out, though, is. It's a
nonfiction. I did a chapter for an anthology that
was an essay on the flatliners universe that comes out in November.
But, yeah, I think it's doing the podcast. I have to make
it through this 15 weeks of the radio show, which is what I'm committed to.
And it's been a lot of work, list all the things that I'm doing. Like,
oh, man, I am doing maybe too much. But,
yeah, I think it is really just to be a voice in
horror. I want to be part of the conversation. I think.
I think horror hasn't gotten the love that it deserves,
but it's such a powerful genre as far as, like, trauma,
as I'm saying, but also inclusivity
and also fear. Like, everybody is
afraid of something. And, you know,
I've been doing a lot of work lately thinking about how almost
every story is a horror story. Like. Like,
I know it's not. I know there is comedy. I'm not delusional.
But, you know, when you think about all of the stories and the way that
humans put story together and you have a hero that's faced with a challenge,
and it, you know, I mean, think of, I don't know, you can think about
the most charming story, like the Little Mermaid and be like, well,
yeah, that's a charming little kid story. But also she's faced
with a big decision. There's a sea witch that takes her voice. You put different
music on that movie. And it's a horror movie very easily.
And these are what we did initially intend
story to be, which was a cautionary tale, which was to share stories with each
other, to connect, to survive, to
warn each other to grow. So I think,
yeah, I. I just want to be more part of that conversation where
horror is going, because it needs to, I think, still
do a better job of showing people that it's not the cheesy, cheap genre
that people once thought it was, that there's a lot more to say here.
Yeah. The storylines in horror are so complex and there's so many
backstories that the backstories can be anything that lead to
some sort of event. And that's. And that's what's so great about the
genre is it's really wide open until these
different areas cross that one path that really explodes
the story open. And just so much fun to work with
that and to hear the stories about it. And you have that. You mentioned the
radio show, for those of people listening. Is that. Does it rebroadcast
online at all? Is there any way for people around the world to listen to
it? Yeah, so it is, of course, it is local to me in public radio,
but you can go to Trentradio CA and it's on Saturday nights
at 10pm awesome. And the podcast is.
That's so morbid. And the best scholars now,
I'm sorry, Spooky Scholars. The Spooky Scholars. I'll have links to all
these in the show notes. And the two books, are they available everywhere you
get your books? They are, yep. Black Rock High and A Cemetery for
Zoe and Black Rock High. The second part of the
series was hopefully coming out the end of next year.
Oh, very good, Very good. We'll put that in the show notes. And the best
way, if people want to check out everything. Do you have a. Just a personal
website. Yes. That you like to send people to? I make it nice and easy.
There's a little tree there. Just go to ashewoodward.com my name is spelled A S
H E woodward.com and you can go to all of the
things I do, including the podcast, the books, and even if
you need me for my day job, which is just regular writing.
All the things. Ashe, thank you so much for joining us. Today.
This was so much fun. Thank you. Let's go back
to that theme song. In the shadows of the classroom
like she writes where fear and truth unite from
black rock high to tales unto where monsters
teach us to be bold it's My
Guest Tonight, step up on the stage and Ashe
Woodward's here to set the page so dim those
lights and hold on tight we're finding hope in the
dark tonight in the night in the night.